• John Ennis

Nat Cole - For Every Reality


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Nat Cole is a cryptocurrency and blockchain educator and consultant, working in the crypto & blockchain space for around 5 years. He is currently working on a 'Phygital' NFT Fashion project, mixing high-quality fashion design, sustainable materials, Web3, and embedded technologies.


Nat’s project NFT Clothing Club (NFTCC) is creating a unique high-quality fashion brand and community utilizing Bitcoin and the power of Stacks. His project is primarily focused on creating communities linking between fashion, NFTs, and Bitcoin.


NFTCC’s motto is "Luxury, high quality, unique fashion pieces, for every reality, inspired by Bitcoin, built on Stacks."


Nat Cole on LinkedIn

Nat Cole on Twitter

NFTClothingClub


Transcript (Semi-automated, forgive typos!)


John: Nat, it's really a pleasure to have you on the show today.


Nat: Thank you very much. Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.


John: Yeah, it's great and the reason I asked you to be on the show is because increasingly consumer brands are getting interested in NFTs. It's a new way to engage with consumers. And I have to say in your motto, I really like how you say for every reality because we now live in multiple realities. You and I are in a kind of shared reality right now where you're in England. Are you in England at this point, is that right?


Nat: Yeah.


John: And I'm here in Virginia. We're just having conversations. So it is a kind of new reality that multiple realities we're living in. So before we get into that, though, I think it'd be good for our listeners to kind of hear your story, how you got into the space, and the kind of adventure you've been on.


Nat: I got into this space, I would say, interested in what Bitcoin was probably around 2014. That's when I really kind of was that it really hit me I'd heard a little bit about it a few years before and it was like, okay, magic internet money. I remember looking it up at the time and seeing the classic magic internet money means. So it's like magic internet money. Okay, this is like some kind of game online thing maybe, or something like that. I didn't really look into it, although I'm a bit of a gamer, I didn't really look into it at the time. Just like, okay, this will come and go, and then a few years later in 2014, I think I must have been watching like Max Kaiser or something like that on Russia Today and then he has like a guy...


John: Can't watch that anymore.


Nat: Yes. It's funny saying that today. It is really funny. I think he had a member of Bitcoin.org or something like that on the actual show and he was speaking about what Bitcoin was breaking down, like the real underbelly of what Bitcoin and blockchain were in this interview. And from there I was sitting with a few friends and one of them I was sitting with, we were like, this is really luck. Something different we've been looking at this all wrong. So from there we just began to kind of like looking into it and kind of get down to what Bitcoin. At first, it was like everybody else, how do I get some? We start searching online. How do you get some, we come across mining, it's like, okay, expensive equipment. We can't fool this right now. But it was like at the time it was like, how do you even get a return? I think that's the first angle that we kind of came from. I think everybody kind of thinks they see that Bitcoin has, well, when you come in at that time period, you see that Bitcoin has come from being worth zero to being worth whatever. And that's kind of like the headline thing. And that's when we kind of discovered, okay, well, how is it built? Like what makes it so special. Then it's like, you discover the Bitcoin blockchain. So now it's always about money really, but it's no longer about just the money. And coming from a lack of computing background and lack of involvement in tech and being interested in tech, it's like crazy mind-blowing. Like they say the rabbit hole. So from there, we started thinking about ways that we could utilize the blockchain to do other things. And obviously, Ethereum was on the kind of rage there at that point, 2014. So it's like, okay, let's look into Ethereum a bit more, and then at this point, Maxi's were in full force as well.


John: A Bitcoin maxi is someone who thinks you should only buy Bitcoin and everything else is a scam. Would you say that's a fair description of what a Bitcoin maximalist is?


Nat: I would say that yeah, I wouldn't say that that's my blanket definition of it. But it is pretty much the roundabout definition of what maxi is. A Bitcoin maxi. But there's now Eve Maxis, there's everything Maxis, there's Sheba Maxis now.


John: Right.


Nat: We can't forget that. But at the time it was like, okay, look we want to try and use this blockchain stuff to do other things. People that know me to know that I've been in the music industry, literally my whole life, or there's a teetering around the music industry, like production, being an artist, sound engineer for years, since I was about 14 years old, been a sound engineer, video editing, I released a DVD back in the day promoting music artists and stuff like that. So it was like, can we do something with the blockchain on royalties? Straight away? That was the initial idea. Can we do something with the blockchain on royalties? Is there a way that royalties could be paid? We started looking up projects, and there was much younger than I was now, obviously, at the time. So I look it up like projects and it was like, I think at the time they had blockchain.music, I think it was called. And that was like a really big project that was going on at the time that was exploring blockchain and royalties. So again, we were new to the space. We're like, we can't do this. This is a crazy project that's already happening. Maybe we can get involved somewhere. So we put that to the side and then we started thinking, maybe we could do what other people do on YouTube, just spread the word and just speak about it.


John: Right.


Nat: But me and my friend, we weren't really like the YouTuber. I call him the hey guys crew. We weren't really the YouTube influence and the regular influencer guys that were putting our face on camera. And recently I've been doing more interviews, but I'm not really that guy. Right? So how can we teach people about this stuff then? So it was like, maybe we could build an education platform on a blockchain. And from there, late 2016, early 2017, we just spent time researching. Obviously, life was happening in between, but we spent time researching, and we bought a bit of Bitcoin, and we started collecting Bitcoin from faucets back in 2014 anyway, so we were still doing that stuff all the way through to 2016. And then 2016, obviously came around. People were talking about ICOs and people doing all these kinds of crowdfunds. And by this time, we knew so much about Bitcoin blockchain and what was going on in the space. People started approaching us and said, can you teach us how we can get into the Bitcoin space? And it was friends and their friends and family. And then it was like somebody we had a guy who had a few businesses who came to us and was like, how do I learn this stuff? And he ended up saying, I'll pay you guys to teach me this stuff. So from then it kind of became an idea that he suggested to us, okay, why don't you guys launch a business in consultancy? Because you guys have been teaching people about this stuff for the past year. Okay, well, let's do it. So we started a blog at first and that was a consultancy that still runs BTC Bros. So we started off that and that was just a blog at first and we started doing article work for crypto publications and stuff like that. So that's how we kind of really got to speak to people within the industry. And then a lot of events were going on in 2017, events were like just fire. So there were just like events everywhere, right? Crypto event in London. So we went to a lot of crypto events and met a lot of people and formed a lot of friendships that we still obviously have today in the crypto industry. And then from there just started to consult with early-stage projects. One of the partners in that business, my cousin, actually. He was pretty big in the social media marketing space, so he was big on automation, big on Instagram. He was doing Instagram years and years and years ago, like Instagram marketing. So I paired with him and we started doing a bit of marketing work and social media work and curation for crypto companies. So that's kind of my experience, my entrance into the space. It's all kind of just self-talk and just putting myself out there really, and just making and forging strong bonds, really on partnerships. Well, not partnerships but friendships, I'd say, with people within the space.


John: Yeah.


Nat: And then just being everywhere, learning. And I think that's what's the best thing about this whole space is that you can literally, maybe not do a jump in feet first and go all in the cut so to speak, but you can learn whilst you also use your creativity or your knowledge or your skills to earn. That was the premise behind the platform that we were working on. So that kind of at the time when we were talking about this, of course, most crypto conversations were like ICO, get a coin, name it, whatever, launch, whatever and we were like education platform. I think that it was a combination of people who weren't really listening and at the same time we were still working out what we needed to do. And at the time I used to say to people, I don't see myself as an educator. I mean now, because I've been consulting for so long, I do, but I didn't see myself as an educator like that. I didn't see myself as a traditional teacher. And I still wouldn't say that I am but a traditional teacher in that sense. But yeah, that's literally kind of like how things started off. It just started building and just building...


John: And learning. Yeah, learning organically. It's been an interesting experience for me as well. My brother bought a bunch of Bitcoin. I think it was a dollar apiece when he bought like 200 of them. And then when they went to $2, he sold 99 of them or something like that. So he made like $100. And so now he doesn't have any, as far as I know. I think he managed to get rid of it all. I think he ended up maybe making $20,000 along the way, but it would have been some huge amount of money, like a Fiat. But I guess that's the thing.


Nat: Okay. Just funny enough, as you say that. Everyone's got a lost story. The funniest thing is, and I said this to somebody else that I was explaining to about getting into the crypto industry and people that I've worked with as well, some of the top people that have watched interviews on or spoken to, they've literally gone from having a big lot of Bitcoin, hundreds, thousands whatever of Bitcoin and they've all got a story about how they went to zero. And that's what I find is really so amazing and I really find it something that keeps me going sometimes as well because sometimes the crypto market is down. You can hold whatever in crypto. It doesn't matter what you hold in crypto, right? You're still going to say to yourself, what's happened there with my portfolio so I think one key thing to remember, and I think that we all kind of understand this after you've been here for a couple of years or at least for one cycle, you can say to yourself that it's going to go to whatever. It's not about the value in terms of dollar value. At the end of the day, you can go down to zero. Like, there are businesses that go down to zero in dollar value, and they just start again. You just got to just keep going and build whatever you're building. That's what it is.


John: That's very good advice. Alright, so now let's talk a little bit about your project because I want to make sure we talk about this. It's very interesting to me. So you have the term Phygital, which is a merger of physical and digital and I think that's very apt to the kind of modern moment. Can you tell us a little bit about this term and your project and what it is that you're doing?


Nat: Okay, interesting storytime. I wouldn't say it's like a concept that I've necessarily jumped on or necessarily not jumped on or warned to if you could say. But I was literally in a clubhouse room the other day, and I heard somebody else describing these types of projects as phygital. So I thought everybody got to use the keyword at some time. Yeah. So I was like, okay, well, let's throw that in there. Like phygital, it does sound good. It does sound like quirky.


John: It's a good term.


Nat: Yeah, and not literally an hour after I was in that clubhouse space. I was on Twitter and I saw four other news articles. This person is doing a phygital. So I was like, okay, so it seems to have stuck already. And as you said, as it's understood from my end as well, it is both physical and digital NFT so in some way linked physical and digital NFT. And funnily enough, how me and you got speaking about the podcast was your previous guest, Keir Finlow-Bates, to who I posed a question to about and he speaks a lot about NFTs, obviously so great guy. But in some of his posts, people have raised a question about the physical supply chain, let's say an NFT and stuff like that. And I think, again, I don't want to say anything or misquote Keir in any way, but I know that he's definitely got his eye open to all the different possibilities. I think sometimes when people see his posts, they might think the opposite because his posts are very like kind of tongue in cheek sometimes. I think that people might take it the wrong way. But we spoke about this obviously before that. I don't think people understand that it is possible to actually have a physical NFT. Now hear me out. I know some people are going to be screaming and be like, no, it's not. But yeah, all technologies that we come up with in terms of software or coding at some point reaches a point where it is embedded or it's embeddable. We enlarge, we shrink. At the end of the day, the way that I see it is all of this stuff to do with, let's say, ownership. If we talk about the ownership side, we know that there's a huge debate about legal and whether it's actually legal. So the lawful side of things. Now, if we do decide to build or I'd say it's inevitable that there will be some kind of legal framework that incorporates the use of NFTs, blockchain, trademarks, IP, and the rest of it. If we're at that stage, the products that we're going to have, as we've known, probably at least for that 1520 years now, products that we're going to have are going to be embedded with technologies. A lot of the products that we're going to have. I mean, even if you look at like RFID, for instance, something that blew me away. But the fact that I didn't know about RFID chips is that there are actually RFID chips that are I think it's one and ten by 10 million of a strand of hair or something like that, right? That's crazy. So that's like 10,000 RFID chips in strands of hair. Like a 1 mm strand of hair. So that's crazy. Do you know anything then therefore that has an RFID NFT tag, a Bluetooth chip, a WiFi? Obviously, we look at IoT devices as well. So anything with this technology embedded and obviously, we think about embedded in the actual term that we'd use it for technology or computers is that it would need this embedded technology to run. Right? So that's in common sense. So let's say, if we talk about stuff like PC peripherals being NFTs, you could easily do that because you could then embed the technology in there somewhere, embed the program, and in there somewhere for the use of it, unlocking your keyboard, whatever. I say easily, but again, it's possible. But when we think about stuff like fashion, when we think about stuff that doesn't need the technology or the embedded chip or whatever to run, we think that okay, well, then that's too far away from it because these are things I've been exploring, obviously, since doing this project is how spoofable is something that doesn't need the embedded technology to run.


John: Right.


Nat: So things like fashion and supply chain for other items, such as food and things like that, could you actually have an NFT use case in these respects, given that you could have an embedded technology, but someone could easily really spoof it. I mean, I and you are wearing headphones. Now, somebody could spoof this pair of headphones, take out whatever's on the inside, put their own technology or whatever, spoof your app UI. So the customer now receives this, and they now think that it's the NFT or whatever. They've scanned it, they've now confirmed their wallet. So they've now linked a wallet to it, and the wallet is now open to all sorts of attacks because the person has actually spoofed the physical item which we know is easily possible for someone to spoof a physical item. How do we know that it cannot be spoofed between the point of manufacture and the point of delivery?


John: Right. This would be like a purse that's been counterfeited somehow, right?


Nat: So this is the difficulty, I would say, around physical or the digital realm is that do you know that you're buying from the supplier. Can the manufacturer have some kind of spoof or backdoor mechanism? As I've heard Keir speak about quite a lot of times and I think that that's one of the great things that he brings to the space is this open view on the smart contracts behind these NFTs. So it's okay for people to come into the space and just randomly mint some artwork or whatever. I'm all for the creator economy. I'm a creator. I love it. But at the same time, we do need to have this level of awareness. Like, what are we buying into? What are we owning in air quotes, what are we owning? Do we own? And as I said, Keir is one of the people I've been really watching for the NFT because I wasn't really an NFT advocate like that. The first guy that actually introduced me to the concept of NFT was the CTO, I think he's the CTO of ZeroX Protocol. I met him in 2017, and he was the guy that introduced me to and I think ZeroX were the guys that really kind of popularized NFTs. They were the ones shouting about NFTs in 2017. So he introduced me to the concept of the NFT and the property ownership, so-called property ownership on the blockchain and that got my spokesperson. We've obviously worked on what we were working on with education at the time and certification and qualifications and stuff. That's what I was full of it. So the artwork thing, there are some other guys, I want to shout these people out on podcast because there are some guys that I met that do like AR painting. There's a guy in London, I can't remember his name, but he was one of the first guy I saw doing that AR paintings. It was like a painting of Bitcoin and when you scanned it with your phone, it went into this explainer video of the history of Satoshi Nakamoto and stuff like that. Really dope and that was those again, those guys were talking about NFT and how ZeroX Protocol was going to change the space with this NFT. So I'd say a lot of guys in the space that we're in the space at that time, 2016-2017 when the ICO was also brought up. I think we kind of knew that this NFT thing was coming. And I think Bitcoin totalitarianists don't believe that this was going to come. But there's so much we could talk about because we're going to probably get on to talking about Stacks and what's going on with Stacks as well. But the concept of building on Bitcoin has been there before Ethereum even. You got like Name Coin, you got Master Coin. There were other projects.


John: Yeah, that's right. The color coin concept. Can we go back before we lose track of it? When it comes to physical items and keeping track of the authenticity, what are some of the ways that you see that problem being solved? Because you're right, it is a real problem that you have potentially counterfeiting or you need some sort of chain of custody. So what sort of solutions do you see to this problem? Because we are going to need to connect the physical world to the digital world. So how do you see that problem being resolved?


Nat: I think the first and obvious step, as I said before, is using things like RFID, NFC because those two things are the two things that are cheap, really readily available, easily programmable, easily secured, and can run a multitude of different applications, especially in terms of IoT.


John: RFID is a radio frequency Identifier. It's a chip that allows an object to communicate. NFC, near-field communication. That's how phones can communicate over short distances. I want to make sure our listeners are all caught up, and IoT is the Internet of Things.


Nat: Yeah, definitely make sure that we're educating there, keeping people up with it but yeah, with those are low powered, low cost, low frequency, and also very, in a sense, they can be secure with high security. I'd say the problem with those, I wouldn't even call it a problem because the thing is some people could argue that, okay, well, those are all commonly used with centralized products or centralized organizations. But I would strongly argue that you could easily, maybe wrong choice of word, but it is possible to build like a Dao structure and then have NFCs, just RFID or IoT, just as a way to interact with the actual chain and that means you could build an application. Your application could be centralized, so the front-end UI could be centralized and everything else. But the interactions would still be pretty much decentralized because you'd be doing what we do every single day on Bitcoin or on Stacks. You'd just be sending messages on the blockchain. So confirmation, validation, authentication, verification, whichever word you want to use or however they're interchangeable could all be done and completed using those technologies. So I think those are kind of like the first things to explore, and then I think, how you improve on those by using technologies from the old school. People forget about stuff like holographic labels and all kinds of steel labels, authentic things, something that's going to come up as a surprise. I'm not going to talk too much on it now, but something that's going to come as a surprise with our project is we've also gone back to thinking about old school concepts that Bitcoin have used historically in the past because we want to really stay true to Bitcoin again. So we fought about many years ago, I don't know if you remember, I need to remember the name of the project on top of my head, but there was a guy who released a set of Bitcoin gold pieces that were like 22-karat gold pieces with inscribed encryption on them. And there was like a kind of bounty to soldier encryption on those pieces. So I'll throw that out there now, but I'm not going to talk too much about it now. But hopefully, that guy is listening to the podcast, or he is at some point when we're talking about what we're doing because we've definitely got old to that thrown in somewhere in the project.


John: It's very interesting. Yes, I mean, this is a really important problem connecting the physical and digital worlds and it sounds like there are a lot of technologies available, and it sounds like you've got some clever solutions coming. So I think that's great. Okay, well, let's talk just a little bit about Stacks because stacks is something we're both interested in. So let's kind of bring our listeners up to speed, so how would you describe Stacks? What is Stacks?


Nat: You know what, yeah, I think I like using the layer 1.5 that Stacks tends to kind of describe it so fast, I know we don't like to think of it like that. We like to think of it as just building on Bitcoin. But if I was going to give it a really layman's explanation, I'd say that Stacks is building on Bitcoin without disrupting the inner workings of the Bitcoin blockchain or anything to do with Bitcoin and being able to have the advantages, the security advantages, and the verification advantages of Bitcoin and then connecting, as we know now with Stacks now, is connecting Defi or decentralized finance or the wider world of Blockchains or the interoperable world of blockchains with the Bitcoin blockchain which is I think I would say that the funny thing about Maxi’s is that I think the Maxi’s agree that, yeah, we would agree that Bitcoin is the main focus here. Bitcoin is the layer zero, so to speak. But if we were going to say, okay, people are just going to transact using Bitcoin and the rest of the tech world is just going to just sit outside of that. It's not realistic. I'm sorry, I am a Bitcoin, I'm hardcore about Bitcoin, and Maxis are going to say, no, he's not. He's a fake, he's a fraud, and he’s a whatever. I've heard many people everything under the sun, but I'm telling you to believe that we can have a future where Bitcoin is everything in terms of financial money and have tech that is ten years behind it still and that things are able to happen. People are going to operate like they do today with the current state of Bitcoin and the crypto industry today. No, it's not going to happen. And no matter how much you read back into the history of this year, from my perspective, anyway, again, there's going to be people that I didn't know a lot more than me. Guys that have been here for a lot longer. But as far as I've looked back into things, there's always been this debate. It's always since the inception of Bitcoin, since Bitcoin minus Cable Lab and Satoshi, people have been debating about how they can bring things to the next level, how things can have a level of interoperability. But the one key thing that everybody agrees on is that we cannot disrupt what is going on with Bitcoin. Bitcoin has to follow where it is going. We can't scale Bitcoin. We know that. Lightning Network comes along. Lightning network, we could provide mass settlement. We could provide settlement in ways that you can't do with Bitcoin without creating another chain, without creating a coin. Great. Stacks come along. Stacks is able to do that, or Blockstack, sorry, as it was formerly known. But Stacks has come along and been able to say, okay, well, let's sit somewhere and this is nothing against RSK or Liquid, but stacks has come along and said, okay, well, you know what, let's take this burden on of building all of this extra stuff. Make all of this extra stuff that's accessible to the wider community, accessible for people who can't argue with what we're doing because we're not affecting Bitcoin, and we're verifying everything against Bitcoin. So how can you argue that the Stacks debate is really weird? I find it to be really weird that people are against Stacks. Now you look at Maxis, like bro, you're living in 2009 and again, that's no disrespect to any Maxis as well. Everybody has their views on each of their own and the rest of the world.


John: Yes, but you're building your project. You've made the decision. You're building it on Stacks and so your smart contracts will be on Stacks, ownership will be recorded. I think that's great. Amazingly, we've kind of actually gone over here on time. It's really a pleasure to talk to you, but let's get some a little bit of advice. Because you have a clear entrepreneurial spirit. You started a lot of, I think, created a lot in your life, and there's a lot more to go. Can you give some advice to our listeners, to entrepreneurs? People who are working inside companies who want to be entrepreneurs. That's another term you hear when you try to bring something inside the company. What are kind of the important aspects of being an entrepreneur in your opinion?


Nat: I touched on the first one, probably at the beginning. It's like having that kind of drive that you're going to kind of create something. You're going to do something. For me, I feel that I want to be able to create something to do something for other people. Like you might have seen on my Twitter, in my bio, I have this saying, I love people, but I don't like people. And I've been asked a lot of times, like, what does this bio mean? You love people, but you don't like people. So I say, I love people. I love humanity. I want people to thrive. I want us to all do the best that we can. That's where some people just can be that really negative, have really bad attitudes, really negative spirits, and try and just bring down whatever other people are doing. So I love people, as in, I'm here to help everybody and to build things that people love and to join with people to do things, great things. But at the same time, if you've got a bit of an attitude and you know, cool, I kind of keep myself to myself rather than, you know. I used to say a long time ago, I used to say that I'm an outgoing recluse so I could be an outgoing person. I'm a talkative person. I get along with people. But I don't really like to put myself among people like that because I find that you can find yourself around the wrong people or just people that you waste too much time on. That's the first thing that I'd probably say.


John: So to sum that up, I would say that it sounds like you need to be doing things for people. But don't get caught up in interactions with negative people because it's easy. When you're building, there's going to always be people who criticize you. It's just the way it is. You have to just ignore them so you have to build for humanity and then ignore the individual humans that may come up and try to stop you from doing what you're doing.


Nat: Exactly.


John: Okay, great and there was a second point?


Nat: Yeah, the second one. This is quite the contrary to what I just said about myself is to kind of just do whatever you're going to do in it. That's something that I think during the pandemic. Like, I was going through a lot of family stuff and things during the pandemic, and I kind of felt like just not doing any of the stuff that I was doing. All of that stuff got to me in a way that I kind of said to myself, how do I kind of get myself motivated again? And I think the real thing is to not get yourself to a point where you're demotivated. Anyway, so just do it. Just do it. You think about doing something, you know, it's going to weigh up the odds but don't sit around all day weighing up the odds. Don't sit around for the rest of your life weighing up the odds. Like, just do it. There are so many things that I've never done that other people have never done that they've always wanted to do. And if you don't do it, you're never, ever going to find out if you can do it or even if it's possible. And I even say this with people just we're talking about crypto just to make it relevant. People just learning about Bitcoin. Do it. Learn about Bitcoin. Don't come into the space, I want to make a million bucks tomorrow. Don't do that. Come into the space and say I want to learn what's going on here. What do I need to learn about what brought us and everybody else here? Bitcoin simple. Learn about Bitcoin. Learn as much as you can learn about Bitcoin and then move on and you can learn about crypto and learn about everything else that gets stuck in a rabbit hole.


John: Yeah, that's very good. Alright, Nat, so how can people get in touch with you if they want to reach out or connect?


Nat: Okay, right, so if people want to get in touch with me, I'd say Twitter. I'm on Twitter @BigRpic.


John: We'll put the link in the show notes.


Nat: Yeah. NFT Clothing Club. That is @NFTClothingClub on Twitter. You can just send a message to the account and I'm sure someone will pass it over to me. And also the discord will be opening for the NFT Clothing Club within the next week. So you can find it on Twitter and just jump into the discord. I'll be in the discord. The rest of the members of the team will be in the discord and then yeah, I mean, obviously you can find me on LinkedIn.


John: Yes, that's how we connected. The magic of the internet. Nat, this has been great, so thank you very much, and I'm excited to hear more about your project maybe we'll collaborate even in the future as your project is going.


Nat: Definitely. I'm excited for NeoSwap, a 100% I'm excited for that.


John: Oh, yeah. Thanks. For the listeners who don't know, we have a side project called Neoswap.ai which is kind of been spawned out of by Aigora. This is a web3, well, it's really actually a general-purpose solution but has great web3 applications so we'll talk a few more about that in the future. Alright, Nat, thank you so much. It's really a pleasure talking to you.


Nat: Definitely. Any time.


John: Okay, that's it. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. If you did, please help us grow our audience by telling your friend about AigoraCast and leaving us a positive review on iTunes. Thanks.


 

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